And I knew that the only way I was going to get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. Yes, no, okay, move on to the next cage, yes, no? That's a lot of people. MICHAEL MEANEY: So the great rat nightmare comes true where the females become their mothers. BARBARA HARRIS: Light bothered him, noise bothered him. In pictures, he has that, you know, that crazy Einstein fuzzy hair thing. CARL ZIMMER: Is your wife going to hear this? In this episode, originally aired in 2012,we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations.Support Radiolab by becoming a member ofThe Labtoday. BARBARA HARRIS: No, I've only had somebody call and say they regret that they didn't stay on birth control. OLOV BYGREN: It's a small forest area, very beautiful. Well, I guess I was thinking we could just start at the beginning. And in one day, we can imagine, he gets curious. You're finishing college, right? LATIF: Still, still standing. Right below the headlines says, "Scientist's great discovery which may change us all.". If Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist. And, I mean, I have straight A's and I'm making it work. He actually coined the word biology, too. I don't like to upset people. So by now it's 1994, and Barbara is thinking You know? That was nice. He said, "If you were a boy, and you starve between the ages of 9 and 12, and then you went on to become a father, then a grandfather, your grandkids". I just didn't think. But here's what I did not know about DNA. And I've got say, I'm feeling pretty good about this show so far. More what kind of stuff? Move on to the next cage, yes, no? Jean Baptiste Lamarck was a pioneer in the . Well, yep, that is so true. This is spooky because it's like JAD: It means what if grandpa has a bad day? In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations. So she told me Barbara had another baby and Did we want it? Look, in the end, what do I know? I wonder. I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was going to name her Destiny. [chuckles]. And youre saying that part of the DNA is covered up? Thyroid hormones then get into the brain and they turn on certain neural chemical signals. She started to wish again that she could have a daughter. ROBERT: What does it look like? He thought it worked with humans, too. JAD: Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. JAD: That's what good rat mothers do, they lick their babies a lot. PAT: When you first hear about this, what goes through your mind? And this idea won him a lot of fans, including, not surprisingly, the Soviets. JAD: Everybody we talked to seems to think there's something really interesting going on here. Destiny says before she was born, her mom had four other girls. LYNN PALTROW: Are there people whose drug use is so out of control they can't parent? The results are obvious to you. Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. PAT: So Barbara and her son got in the car and drove across town to the foster home where Destiny had been living for the past eight months. ROBERT: [laughs] "This may hurt you my son, but I'm doing it for my grandchildren.". Telling some genes to turn off now, other genes to turn on. JAD: Theyd basically starve. A lot of times that's not the case. SAM KEAN: You got to help boost if you had a starving grandfather. Who are you? SAM KEAN: Darwin's theory would have said, you know, 90% of the toads are going to die. In RadioLab a laboratory setting is used, in which the player receives radioactive stones that emit alpha, beta and gamma radiation particles. His big idea, as you might know, is that what a person does in their lifetime could be directly passed to their kids. The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and CHARLOTTE and VERONICA ZIMMER: The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. And um Doctors would later explain to Barbara that Destiny's mom had been addicted to drugs while she was pregnant. Even if it helps, it's horrifying. Knock it right off the DNA. We inherited this beloved show that we first fell in love with as listeners. MICHAEL MEANEY: So thats the reason, of course, that we work with rats because we can get inside the brain. CARL ZIMMER: mouse or rat? CARL ZIMMER: I know what I'll do, I'm going to set up a terrarium for them and I'm going to make it hot, really uncomfortably hot. Okay, all right, this is interesting. Radiolab Society & Culture Science Latest Transcripts What Up Holmes? BARBARA HARRIS: Since birth. Is that a genetic hatred of whistling that I just had? ROBERT: Or how much humidity it preferred. In those books you can read everything about the citizens of verkalix, going back hundreds of years. LULU: Did you know there is a part of this show is gonna be like crazy breaking news, like happened yesterday and we already have a deep take on it? ROBERT: Okay. That's it. These are four kids from the same birth mother? And one of them is called the thyroid system. And eventually, over the millenia, what youd get, is a creature with a very long neck. ROBERT: Instead of dying at 40, I'd live to 70? JAD: And at first, it didn't go so well because, you know, if you're a land toad and you're trying to have sex in the water, it's kind of hard. Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. Like shed give the women a choice. Michael and Frances looked inside the brains of these rats and what they saw was that the rats who had been licked a lot as babies, they had more stuff in their head. Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. I said, "No, no, that's okay." I mean, when you look at the records, you don't see huge spikes in mortality. [laughs] We now know that thats not the case. They have found very similar effects for smoking, for instance. BARBARA HARRIS: And I was a waitress, I worked for IHOP for over 30 years. Maybe like those methyl things we were telling you about with the rats. ], Like you said, when you were in your addiction like she is], I didn't say I'm God. JAD: Do you have any theories for how this tongue is tickling the DNA, or whatever it's doing? More information about Sloan at. JAD: Because you begin with a mother's lick that ends up with a deep, deep change in the baby, not just the good, warm, fuzzy feeling, but a fundamental shift in who that baby is, and who that baby will be. We actually sent our friend, Pejk Malinovski, to the archives in Stockholm to check it out. I'm so proud and I have four years clean. As to diabetes, it was a four-fold risk. CARL ZIMMER: It all came down to this jar with his toad in it. And when she had a baby. I don't think that puts me in the same category as Hitler. It's against the rules. Taylor Swift's Never Getting Back Together. You can't see that on the radio but, hey, it's a fact of life. I had everybody's abuse on my back and I didn't care how we said it, or how we did it. That is a bad way to start a kid's life but that's just the beginning of the kid's life. Radiolab is on YouTube! ], I'd like everybody to meet, please, Barbara Harris. BARBARA HARRIS: This is 750 and this is 200. This great. More what kind of stuff? In this magazine article, Barbara even said, quote, "We don't allow dogs to breed. He hit the lecture circuit and he hit it big. Covid has disrupted the most basic routines of our days and nights. You're obviously a great mom, but that feels cold to me. JAD: Look, in the end, what do I know? JAD: We all know this, that there are cycles of abuse or whatever. I said, "This will be the last one. And I just felt like it was in one of those moments that contains everything that's good about us as people. SAM KEAN: And these effects, in fact, were so strong that you could trace it to the grandfather. He's the guy who told us about Olov's work. But she says, you can tell right away, just by looking, that some rat moms don't lick their kids a lot. MICHAEL MEANEY: That activates maternal behavior. Plus, find other cool things we did in the past like miniseries, music videos, short films and animations, behind-the-scenes features, Radiolab live shows, and more. They would experience these wild changes from harvest to harvest. And at a certain point, I noticed over my shoulder Barbara's crouched down and she's got her phone out and she's taking a picture of this just perfect little scene. These were kids that didn't end up with Barbara? Listen Jan 27, 2023 Birthstory A sperm, an egg, two wombs, four countries, and money. I like you, I get the sense that there's a lot of warmth in you. ROBERT: But the story he told us begins around 25 years ago. MICHAEL MEANEY: That's it. PAT: And I told Destiny I was thinking about this and asked her about it. These are women who love their children, who sought help. PAT: Yeah. [expletive] That was awesome. Can you say oh my goodness? It goes back to the 1800s. DESTINY HARRIS: Yes. How much of you will echo into the future and how much of you won't? Radiolab 50.3K subscribers Subscribe 29 1.5K views 6 months ago On this episode, the case that pushed one Supreme Court justice to a nervous breakdown, brought a boiling feud to a head, and. Okay, you want to say bye? PAT: For me, this whole story really shifted PAT: When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. That's interesting. Because, you know, that Ive got these two kids, right? Four or five steps later, we are in JAD: So almost instantaneously, the mother's tongue has reached into the baby's brain cells. SAM KEAN: He was really one of the first grand theorists in biology. Life is hard.". How was this woman allowed", "To walk into the hospital and drop off a damaged baby and just walk away with no consequences?". PAT: Over the past five years, if you look at our tax return. CARL ZIMMER: This second channel of heredity. You dont really say it to yourself that way, but yeah. We went to the foster home and went in. BARBARA HARRIS: I decided to have a press conference in my front yard to announce what I was doing. JAD: Serotonin gets into the brain cells, and according to Michael unleashes MICHAEL MEANEY: A whole series of molecular events inside the cell. Because the truth is, you have no idea how these kids are going to turn out. Isaiah would sleep and he would scream. JAD: Thanks to Frances Champagne and Michael Meany and Sam Kean, who writes about Paul Kammerer in his book, The Violinist's Thumb. OLOV BYGREN: Well It's one-fourth, we can we say. Like, I mean, as far as positives can go, I think I hit the jackpot. CARL ZIMMER: You know, the fact is that taking care of animals, trying to keep them alive in a building is not an easy thing, especially if it's 1903. JAD: Now, according to Carl, your genes are still fixed. ROBERT: I wonder. And he makes a very careful study of this hand. 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